Ever wondered about the dark side of pet store puppies? In this episode of Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Dr. Johnny Lieberman talks with undercover investigator Pete Paxton about the hidden horrors of puppy mills, factory farms, and the pet trade. From abusive breeding facilities to misleading USDA inspections, discover why adopting is the ethical choice and how pet stores fuel cruelty.
If you've ever considered buying a puppy from a pet store or online, this episode will change your perspective forever.
Dr. Johnny Lieberman sits down with seasoned undercover investigator Pete Paxton to uncover the grim realities of puppy mills, the massive breeding operations that supply pet stores with dogs raised in filth, neglect, and suffering. Pete shares firsthand accounts from over two decades of investigations, including wire cages piled with feces, dogs driven "cage crazy," and breeders who prioritize profit over welfare. The conversation exposes how pet stores mislead consumers with glossy ads and false claims of "reputable breeders," while USDA inspections often fail to enforce even basic standards due to inherent conflicts of interest.
Beyond the shock, Dr. Lieberman and Pete discuss the broader implications: the health risks to puppies (and buyers), the environmental ties to climate disasters increasing shelter overcrowding, and why adoption from shelters or fosters saves lives and provides better-matched, healthier pets. This episode empowers listeners to make compassionate choices, reject the "adopt don't shop" myths, and support real solutions like volunteering and fostering, without judgment, but with eye-opening facts.
Top 3 Takeaways
About the Guest:
Pete Paxton is the Director of Investigations at SEED (Strategies for Ethical and Environmental Development), where he leads animal cruelty investigations focused on factory farms and pollution. With over two decades of experience since 2001, Pete has gone undercover at puppy mills, pet stores, slaughterhouses, and commercial fishing operations. His work has been featured in HBO documentaries like Dealing Dogs and Death on a Factory Farm, as well as National Geographic's Animal Undercover. He is co-author of the book Rescue Dogs, which outlines solutions to animal exploitation.
Websites: ethicalstrategies.org, humaneworld.org, and capweb.org.
About the Show
Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.
About the Host
Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.
In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens—while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).
Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.
[00:00:00] Ever wonder what is the real story behind the adorable puppies you see for sale in pet store Windows? An undercover investigator joins the show today to reveal what really happens at the breeding facilities that produce the puppies for sale in pet stores, and what really happens on the factory farms where animals get turned into your food.
If you love dogs, or even if you just love food, this is a conversation you will not want to miss.
Pete Paxton is the Director of Investigations of Seed. He has done animal cruelty investigations since 2001. Uncovering animal abuse at Puppy Mills, factory farms, slaughterhouses, commercial fishing boats, and pet stores. In many cases. [00:01:00] Pete has worked undercover for weeks or months at a time. His work has been covered in the HBO documentaries, dealing Dogs and Death on a factory farm, and the National Geographic documentary Animal Undercover.
He is a co-author of Rescue Dogs.
Hello, welcome to another episode of Puppies, pandemics and Public Health. I'm Dr. Johnny Lieberman, and today I am pleased to welcome on the show, Pete Paxton. Pete, thank you so much for taking out some time and joining me this morning. Thanks so much for having me. I am excited. Pete let's give a little bit of background on what you do and maybe how you got here and how you are, qualified to speak on some of these issues to share this knowledge.
Sure. So, I have done investigations for animal protection nonprofits since 2001. Half of my [00:02:00] career has been. Focused on animal for food issues, largely factory farming, slaughter some commercial fishing the other half of my career is dogs. I have documented well over a thousand puppy mills by now.
I have worked undercover at several of the largest puppy mills, that there are in the us. And seen a couple of them shut down from the crimes that they were committing.
I have worked undercover at a pet store and then of course, gone undercover into well over a hundred, or so pet stores by now across the US that puppy mill work. I typically do that for two groups, the Companion, animal Protection Society, and Humane World. And Humane World.
I do a variety of things for them on, puppy mills and pet stores forthe Companion Animal Protection Society, or caps. I go to pet stores and this might be a place where people are considering passing a law that would stop those stores from selling puppies and kittens [00:03:00] from breeders .
And I will walk in and I'm wearing a covert camera, and microphone, I'm recording it. I'm like, Hey, you got a lot of puppies here. Can you tell me where they come from? I wanna make sure they don't come from puppy mills. Do you know about the breeders?
And I listen to what they say. Then I go document the actual breeders that supply them and show how completely different it is from what they said . Other work that I've done though, has been documenting unlicensed breeders or licensed breeders that just sell out the door. I've been to places that are like, yeah come on over.
we'll show you what our place is. Like, give you a full tour. Go right ahead. And so I've had all of that experience from A to Z with the dog breeding industry. And that's kind of led to the mentality that I have now on how to fight it . Thank you so much for sharing that.
Pete, I think that gives me, as well as our listeners [00:04:00] a great understanding that when you're gonna talk about any of this, you know what you're talking about. Unlike me who has read a lot and spoken with a lot of people, I have not been inside a puppy mill. I've been in a handful of pet stores. I've done a lot of research.
But you are on here for this experience. You've had. I think you can share it with our listeners and hopefully teach a lot of our listeners, something important where they can really make a difference with the choices they make. It's easy for people to do that.
They have that opportunity all the time. there's a book I wrote with a couple authors, gene Stone and Nick Bromley back in 2019 called Rescue Dogs. And I outline some of the undercover work that I've done to explain the problem, but then we also explain the solution. there's a whole section of the book where we thought, okay, how do we outline everything that you can do that's gonna help dogs and to help any kind of a skeptic understand that [00:05:00] adoption and volunteering and fostering, that's the solution versus anything else. I've done animal ag stuff and puppy mill stuff, but I've also done investigations of hunting and animals and entertainment and, you know, just a variety of things.
And the thing about the puppy mill issue is that it's so easy to be part of the solution. It's so easy to not contribute to the puppy mill industry and to help fight it. Thanks for leading with that, Pete. So let's talk about the connection.
Between retail pet stores, selling puppies and puppy mills or other places that would be a likely source to buy a dog that came from a puppy mill. That might be a starting point. Before we get into the multiple advantages of rescuing a dog, why is going to a pet store? when you are looking for a new dog [00:06:00] or going online why is that wrong?
Why is that not the best thing for bringing a new dog into your family? What's going on that's behind the scenes that you've seen? Pet stores, they buy from puppy mills, period. And a lot of places that you buy from online, I mean, it's exactly the same. So let's take Petland, there's a lot of pet stores do this, but take Petland.
That'll be like a prime example. You walk in and one of the things you might notice first is the sticker shock, right? That you're talking puppies that are like 4,000 to $9,000, right? But it's clean. There's literally gonna be a wall of dogs. And they're playful and they got toys.
And you can take anyone that you want, you can play with them in a little playroom, and then you're gonna look up and there's these big TV screens up above you. It shows footage of dogs and puppies running through grassy yards and playing. And they show kennels too, but it'll be these long kennel runs and it's perfectly clean and you're gonna think, [00:07:00] wow, that's excellent.
If you ask about it, they'll be like, yeah, here's the names of breeders. Look how big these places are. They got heated floorings. The dogs are let out every day and they can all play and it's convincing. And then they offer you financing and they offer you a health guarantee. And I've worked undercover at a petland, so I know how this works.
Like I would, and I still feel terrible about this to this day. That's what I had to do. People would walk in just to look at a puppy and they would walk out the door with a puppy that like, they had no intention of buying. They just wanted to look at 'em. Because you get commission for that.
So you want everything you can to sell that puppy I'm gonna ask you to pause right there. Sure. You said this as a fact, I understand is a fact. 'Cause it sounds like you're gonna go into what goes on at a typical puppy mill, which I really need the audience to hear. Yeah. But I wanna drive home the point you said puppies from pet stores come from puppy Mills fact.
Yeah. So I wanna just drive that home to [00:08:00] our listeners. and correct me if I'm wrong, Pete, no matter what they're telling you in a pet store, no matter what images you're seeing, no matter what a salesperson would say, we don't source from puppy mills. We get all our dogs from reputable, responsible breeders, whatever line they're telling you.
It is not true. Yeah, the dogs in pet stores come from horrific, disgusting conditions, and when you decide to shell out seven grand plus maybe another five or six grand in finance charges as Pete's getting at over the course of the life of the dog that this is the industry that you are supporting.
And as we're gonna get to listen around for the end of the show, we have other options where you could spend much less, get a dog that's probably gonna be healthier and not support this vile industry. So Pete, I just [00:09:00] wanted to pause and get some of that out there and frame it going forward. Please continue.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I have seen a puppy mill where there were about 400 dogs there. All in these raised wire cages. I was able to do surveillance to set a camera and to watch for minutes at a time. And I got footage for minutes at a time. Dogs pacing and spinning in cages just over, and they'd gone cage crazy.
I do wanna hear About your thoughts on the USDA inspections.this description that you gave of these puppy mills and the way these dogs are not cared for really, even though on the surface it may look like it and you could see pictures talking about USDA certification, is that the norm for the dogs that get sourced into PET stores?
This lack of appropriate care. Why are cages maybe in their own filth what is that? Is this the norm when you get a dog or if you're looking at a dog from a pet store? [00:10:00] Or is this just a handful of places and most of them are actually coming in healthy and well cared for? What's the norm?
Yeah, so the norm is you're gonna see dogs either in wire cages, a lot of breeders prefer wire. 'cause then their poop falls through and they don't have to clean as much. If they have that kind of setup that's typically called the sundown or cages, that is a type of brand that's most common for making that they'll have the plastic sheet. Underneath that first row to prevent that. And they'll poop on top of that.
And then they'll have like a little PVC pipe that comes out, that water runs through. So they can just stick a hose to it and then they'll just spray it down. Or they'll have a single row of cages and then the poop falls down in there. And then they may or may not clean that for weeks or months.
Other times dogs will be on concrete runs or they'll be on dirt or rock. And you may, depending on the day you're there, you may or may not see that as clean. may have just cleaned it. They may not have cleaned it for a week or two. But when you see a place where there's dogs in cages and they're fully matted and they're [00:11:00] spinning and there's poopoo piled up on the cage wire, you know that's a puppy mill.
Or you see, like I saw recently a guy had these long concrete runs, but it was so much feces that had been rained on. It was, mashed onto the flooring. There was literally nowhere for them to step without being in their own manure. I know that's a puppy mill, and these dogs they don't act like dogs at all . They act like statues.
They just stand there. They don't respond to being petted. They don't respond to movement around them. They don't know what to do. If you put a toy in front of them, like, they don't know how to behave in any situation. They're just very heavily broken. They need a lot of, rehabilitation.
So yeah, that is perfectly normal for puppy meals. Yeah. Thanks. just wanna drive that home to the listeners. Despite all this, if you're still thinking about going to a pet store to buy a puppy, I want you to remember what Pete described the conditions. Are raised in the filth, the lack of care, the lack of human contact.
Many of the things that we take [00:12:00] for granted for the dogs that we bring into our family, I would think that most of the listeners, most of the public looking at bringing a new dog into their family would rather support a business or support a model where the dogs are cared for, where the dogs are given love, just like the love you're gonna get and not support a business model that really sounds like they're just in it, purely for the profit from the mill to the broker to the pet store.
It sounds like it's just about profit, not about. Connecting healthy dogs with families who want them to increase that bond, that loving bond that we all know about. Anyone who's had a dog or a cat or any pet for that matter, So keep that in mind.
Putting aside the ridiculous frequency, high costs that you'll pay dealing with a dog, that's gonna be more likely than not, or it'll be [00:13:00] challenged because it's had poor healthcare up until that point. It might have health problems. It's had very poor socialization up to that point. As Pete told you, these dogs might wanna attack when a lot of dogs that we know of who have been socialized, see a human and they wanna play.
They wanna come up and smell you, check you out. Do you have a treat? For me, that's kind of what most of us think as normal dog behavior. That's not what happens with these puppies. Before they get to the pet store to say nothing of the way the moms are treated, which we haven't gotten into. But Pete, thanks for bringing all that up.
I wanted to drive home that point as to what, when you buy a dog for six or seven grand from a pet store, this is what you're getting. Yeah. This is what you're starting with and this is the industry you're supporting. And they will often say, or sometimes even advertise, we only buy from USDA licensed breeders.
Now that sounds really good. Right on. On the surface sounds [00:14:00] really good. But Pete, I think may have a different story as to what does that really mean? What does that guarantee if the puppy you are buying came from A-U-S-D-A licensed breeder, does that guarantee the dogs was healthy, cared for?
it doesn't mean any of that. It sounds good, but it doesn't mean any of that. There's no guarantees of any of that. Pete, why don't you tell us what you've learned in your experience as to what it means and for our listeners, what does it mean?
Sure. the first puppy mill. I worked undercover at, you know, 600 dogs and those dogs that were being sold to, research. And there were dogs that were dying there every day, dying from the cold, dying from dogs that would fight each other over food, 'cause they had to come from different places and all come together.
it was a horrible place. And, I saw an inspection. I saw the inspectors walk through and it's that the dogs are in these long. Concrete runs with wooden dog houses in the back. No [00:15:00] inspector bothered to actually enter a pen and look at the dogs that were actually hiding in the dog houses.
And so they, got clean bill of health. Right. I've worked at a puppy mill where the puppy Miller said on tape, listen, this inspector's gonna come 'cause the inspector let her know she was gonna show up. Let the breeder know. Gave her a heads up. And she's like, she's gonna show up tomorrow.
so we have all these puppy cages, the puppy's legs are falling through the wire. And they would do that 'cause they didn't wanna have to bother to put down these little plastic mats. 'cause then you have to clean 'em. And she was like, so we're gonna put those mats down and the moment the inspector's gone, we're gonna pull 'em up.
You know, and you might be wondering like, okay, if there's inspectors and if they care and some of them do care, why would some give someone a heads up? Why would they not enter a pen? Why would they see some of these problems and allow them to pass an inspection.
So here's the thing. The USDA, the US department, agriculture, it's the same government agency that inspects our [00:16:00] slaughterhouses, inspects our dog breeding kennels. And they bring the same mentality that animals are a resource. Dogs are a resource. The farming community uses them like any kind of animal for profit, chickens, pigs, hogs, cattle doesn't matter.
They're for profit. And the USDA has two goals. Number one, they have to ensure. That they enforce their regulations, and number two, they have to ensure that the health of the industry that they're regulating stays healthy. How do you do both those things, right? That would be like the DEA saying, all right, we're gonna bust some drug dealers and let's make sure that there's a really healthy drug industry as well.
Like you can't do both those things. You pick one and they have picked one. Wow. I really like your DEA example. It's [00:17:00] almost as if there's a conflict of interest in what the USDA has been charged to do. Yeah. They are charged with promoting the agriculture industry. That's part of their mission statement. They also have a subdivision, called APHIS or the Animal Plant Health Inspection Service, which is charged with enforcing the health and welfare of the animals and plants under the USDA umbrella.
And as you pointed out, how can you do both? If you really want to continue to promote agriculture industry, which basically sees animals as commodities, basically turning a pig or a cow into a steak or a piece of bacon as efficiently, as cheaply as possible, that's the goal that USDA has a mission to support.
How can the same [00:18:00] agency also say, well, you can't be doing this. We have these regulations. you're in violation of said regulation because it's not meeting our standards for how these animals have to be cared for. And they've made their choice, as Pete said, which is gonna be more important.
The animals are gonna lose every single time with the current system, every single time. The same mentality that sees farm animals as purely commodities for profit. Sounds like that's also in the dog breeding industry Oh, a hundred percent is, Even when violations are present, they don't routinely get enforced. And that is what you are supporting and you need to understand. That goes behind that USDA stamp of approval that the pet store is going to advertise and that it goes from the puppy mill broker pet store into your [00:19:00] home.
An industry with essentially almost no oversight into how the dogs are being treated. To say nothing of the fact that the standards that are written into law, that are enforced are really not welfare standards so much as survival standards. it's just what do we have to do to get this dog to put out a profit, just like in the farm industry, which there even aren't any of these standards outside of the transport and slaughter of the animal.
On the farm, the whole farm raising process. There's nothing to protect the animals. At least there's something to say from the Animal Welfare Act, which is what's getting enforced in theory by the USDA. But they're really subsistence standards. not really welfare.
So the standards are dismal. They have been updated in decades. Yeah, that's true. They're [00:20:00] barely enforced because it's not in the interest of what appears to be kind of a conflict of interest with the USDA, who's charged with enforcing it and Pete where does the money flow between puppy mills, USDA PET stores do these dog breeders,
pay for licenses or somehow send money to the USDA as part of this process or no? Yeah, so, they pay for licenses. This just goes back to the central core idea that, we view animals here as resources So I wanted to transition to Why is adopting one of the answers?
I mean, you don't have to convince me because it mm-hmm. I was not there before. I was in this mindset. If I want a golden retriever and damn it, I'm gonna go find myself a golden retriever. And you have to find a breeder to do that a lot of the time. You can still get pure breads in shelters sometimes.
No question. But it's part of our culture as the way I see it. I want a dalmatian, [00:21:00] I want a German Shepherd. I want a colleague,I want a golden retriever. Whatever it is, I want a chihuahua. I'm convinced I have a wonderful rescue dog to change my life, and there's no going back for me.
But Pete what's your side? Why is adopting a dog an important part? Of this puzzle and fixing it. You know, there's dogs that are being killed in shelters across the country every day. And if there's always opportunities to save their lives. So there's that basic element.
Now sometimes you might find some smaller shelter, and they're not overcrowded, but a lot of them have to then start pulling from larger shelters in nearby cities. 'cause Those shelters are always overcrowded so, first of all, you save a life, but secondly, you're going to have a better pet.
I feel like there's a perception that. Kind of what you led that with is true that it's the opposite that I want a healthy dog. I want a dog that's comes from A-U-S-D-A facility. I want a dog that's going be good for my [00:22:00] family. I'm gonna go with a pure bread. And from that they don't know is from a puppy mill.
And I wanna emphasize the opposite is true. If you adopt from a shelter or from a rescue that's been with a family, you're gonna know so much more information about the dog regardless of those scenarios. I volunteered a shelter I've worked with and cared for dogs, and I've also adopted from a shelter.
And the shelter workers know you say, oh, if you're someone who likes to run six miles a day and you want a dog that kind of companion. They'll, they can tell you that. Or if you're someone who doesn't do that and want a couch potato kind of dog, the shelter workers, as did I, from caring for these animals over and over, they're gonna know that they're gonna know the dogs that are gonna jump up and be playful.
And the dogs that just wanna roll over and have their belly rubbed. They have their [00:23:00] personalities and finding an animal that fits with your lifestyle, your needs, what's good for your family, your kids, that's all important for the dog and yourself.
And you get so much more of that information, not to mention. They've had their, they're up to date on their shots. They've gotten the veterinary care that they need. There's probably not going to be any, at least unknown health issues that you're dealing with. And behaviorally, you're starting from a much better place in the shelters.
I can tell you because I've seen it, the dogs that have behavioral issues, they get worked on, they get trained to try and break their fear of being alone, their fear of humans, their aggressive nature that came from whatever their prior unfortunate scenario was. They have a dedicated team at these shelters working to make these dogs happier, more [00:24:00] confident, more friendly, ultimately more adoptable, but they're gonna be a better fit for any family.
When you have this dedicated staff, that's their goal. Healthy dogs with humans, not driven by profit, which is the other side. They want to turn these puppies into profit as quickly as possible. Whereas in the shelter and rescue environment, it's a completely different mindset.
They care about the dog, and that's what you're getting. You're getting a dog who had this care, had this love, had this appropriate veterinary care, better nutrition, all that happened before you get the dog. What do you think is gonna give you the highest probability of having a happy relationship with that dog?
And what can you feel most confident about that you're supporting? You're supporting this whole behind the scenes industry dedicated to the dog. [00:25:00] Does that sound more like something that you wanna support, where you wanna spend your hard earned dollars? Or do you wanna support the puppy mill industry and go to a pet store?
The contrast is stark, and I wanted to highlight it because I didn't realize that as recently as a handful of years ago, I was under the impression that the highest chance of getting a healthy, well-bred dog was getting a purebred from either a pet store or a local small responsible breeder.
And anecdotally, I can also say I had a neighbor living in Colorado who bought two dogs in a row, golden retrievers from a supposed reputable breeder. And both of them passed away at age five or six I don't know all the details, but presumably poor genetics. And now that could happen with any dog, but this is a common theme.
and [00:26:00] they probably paid a lot of money for that dog, not as much as a pet store, but way more than in a shelter. And they loved their dog and they cared for it. And I met both of these dogs and they were adorable, loving golden retrievers. But there's no more of a health guarantee or a behavior guarantee buying from a USD, A licensed breeder, buying from a pet store, buying from a puppy mill, then going to a rescue or a shelter.
I wanted to drive that point home. I was under that disillusion for a long time. I'm not anymore. So, Pete, thanks for bringing those points up. We're getting close to the closing, Pete, so I wanted to allow you some time, if you wanna drive home, kind of the most important point, or actually I'll give you more than one this time.
A couple of points. What can our listeners, I think you've gotten a good sense. I wanna arm you with the information that Pete has kindly shared and give you a few take home points. How you can make a [00:27:00] difference when it's time for you to find another dog for your family. Pete, drive it home again.
What can our listeners do when it comes to be that time? Yeah. I would say that your best bet is if you can find a foster based rescue, then you are most likely to find the dog with a personality that is gonna be best suited for your family. also if your specific thing is that you're looking for a dog with a certain personality because you have kids or you have a cat or another dog.
I can't stress this enough. Don't buy into the hype of Well, then this is the breed that you need. I have worked as a veterinary assistant at a no kill shelter. I have volunteered at shelters. I have worked with dogs for my whole career. It's just not true. I understand that there's certain stereotypes and I understand that like for some reasons, like golden retrievers tend to be friendly and I get that.
But you will meet mean dogs of any breed. You will meet nice dogs of any breed. So focus [00:28:00] more on wanting the specific personality, not the size, not the color, not the breed of the dog. the only other thing that I would say is if you are someone who's, like, well, I know, but you know, maybe I could help out my friend who breeds, or, I hear you.
But I still would like to breed 'cause my dogs have good personalities. The only thing that I can finally say about that is that. If you really love dogs, you don't profit off of them, you rescue them and to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. You have to realize that if you don't have a problem with a shelter at your local community, the shelter and the next one does, and there's always a dog that literally is gonna die tomorrow at a shelter nearby, you can always go save a life and that problem.
We are trying to fight that by fighting the puppy mill industry, but that problem is gonna get worse. And climate change is part of the reason why There's an increased amount of natural disasters and every time those disasters happen, you don't always hear on the news [00:29:00] that there's hundreds of thousands of pets that people have to go out and rescue and then send to shelters across the country, and that is only going to get worse.
There's only gonna be more and more animals that need to be rescued. More and more animals displaced. The need to adopt has never been greater. Oh, thank you Pete. I emphasize that adopt so adopter or get from responsive breeder. Pete talked about before, I have also just seen very simple adopt Don't shop and yeah, so many good reasons to do it.
It's better for your finances, better for your pocketbook. It's supporting an industry that actually has an interest in the dogs. You get a higher probability of getting a healthier dog and knowing about a dog that's gonna work well for your family. There's so many reasons to do it, and I think it's literally hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats are euthanized every year in this country because nobody wants them, not because of any other reason you could contribute to that problem.
Adopt a homeless [00:30:00] dog in the shelter. Pete, that was all fantastic. I'll give you a close here. Do you wanna share anything more about you, the organization you're with, or anything else you wanna ask of our listening audience? Yeah. I am the Director of Investigations of Seed Strategies for Ethical and Environmental Development.
You can see us on ethical strategies.org. See the kind of investigations we do, we investigate animal cruelty investigations largely focusing on animal ag. We also work with litigators to sue factory farms that pollute waterways. And for my puppy mill investigations, that's for Humane Worldyou can go to, I think it's just humane world.org and then cap web.org for the Companion Animal Protection Society.
So all this stuff that I said in case you're like, where is that man? There's videos. There's videos out there, and CAPS tends to make lots and lots of them. They have a huge ammo stockpile of videos of all this evidence. That's great, Pete. and thanks for all the work you do. It's invaluable for helping get some [00:31:00] justice for the injustices in the system and the animals that are suffering.
a lot of it could not be done without your work. Heartfelt. Thank you for the difficult work that you're doing to help as part of this fight. Oh, thanks. Thanks for all that. thank you Pete for your time for sharing your, insights and thoughts on this.
I hope you obtain some valuable information from the show and that if and when it's time for you to look for another dog, adding a dog to your family. Hope you're going to consider adoption and look into it. There's so much information out there thank you.