Feeling ignored by elected officials on issues like animal welfare or factory farming? In this episode, Lewis & Clark Law School student and animal law advocate Nicole Wood shares simple, powerful tools for everyday people to influence government regulations through public comment periods with no law degree required.
What if you could directly shape the rules that govern factory farming, environmental protections, and more without ever running for office?
In this eye-opening episode of Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, host Dr. Johnny Lieberman talks with Nicole Wood, a second-year law student at Lewis & Clark Law School focused on animal law and industrial agriculture reform. Nicole explains the rulemaking process, where agencies turn broad laws into enforceable details, and how anyone can submit public comments during open periods to make their perspective count.
Drawing from their own journey from growing up around family farms to becoming a vegan advocate and active commenter on issues like feedlot pollution Nicole demystifies terms like "humane washing" and "greenwashing," exposes misleading industry labels, and offers practical steps: using regulations.gov and federalregister.gov, crafting persuasive comments with personal testimony and facts, and even building records for future legal challenges.
Whether you're passionate about animal rights, the environment, public health, or any regulated issue, this episode empowers you to move beyond frustration and into action balancing industry influence with your voice as a consumer, parent, or concerned citizen.
Top 3 Takeaways:
About the Guest:
Nicole Wood is a second year JD student at Lewis & Clark Law School, specializing in animal law with a focus on challenging industrial animal agriculture through regulatory advocacy, consumer protection, and environmental law. A longtime vegan advocate, Nicole serves as Symposium Editor for the Animal Law Review, External Projects Chair for the Animal Legal Defense Fund student chapter, and has contributed to public comments on issues like feedlot pollution permits. Their pre-law experience in financial compliance sharpened their eye for regulatory gaps, driving their commitment to corporate transparency and animal protection. Nicole is a 2025-26 Law Scholars for Change recipient for their dedication to farmed animal advocacy.
Websites:
About the Show:
Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.
About the Host:
Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.
In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).
Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.
Connect with Dr. Johnny Lieberman
Email: John@johnliebermanmd.com
[00:00:00] Have you ever felt strongly about an issue and it seemed like your elected officials and government were not hearing you? Keep listening and learn a few simple tools that you can use to keep up on legislative issues most important to you, and how you can make your voice. Welcome to another episode of Puppies, pandemics and Public Health.
With me today, I have Nicole Wood from Lewis and Clark Law School. Nicole, thank you so much for joining today and being on the show. Yeah, thank you for having me. So Nicole, if there were one thing that you wish our audience knew that you'd like to impart and at least one take home from the episode today, what would that be?
Yeah. I think the biggest thing for me is that if you care about [00:01:00] an issue, you can leverage your skills and your life experience now to create positive change. And one of the ways to do that, one of the ways that's really spoken to me is by participating in rulemaking processes through public agencies.
All right. And this is for. Almost any issue that's important to them. That's in the public domain and government realm. Correct? Absolutely. It's pretty much any issue that the government would think to regulate and anyone can publish the comments. You don't have to be a qualified expert. Um, you don't have to be necessarily a party that's directly affected.
Great. I'm looking forward to getting into that. So can you tell our audience a little bit about yourself, what you're doing now, and maybe a bit of the path that got you to this point and how you know so much about this topic that we're gonna talk about Yeah, absolutely. So as you mentioned, [00:02:00] I am a law student right now. I'm actually in my second year at Lewis and Clark. and I came here really to study animal law, to, study the way that we regulate our factory farming system how we treat animals and how we can increase their welfare and advance their rights through the law.
Now what kind of led me down this path, it was a rather rocky, inconsistent path, is just a general concern for animal wellbeing. Learning about how we can exploit animals through especially like the farming industry. How we treat them more as commodities That we can just extract maximum value out of.
That was something that was deeply concerning to me and, after I graduated college, I started just reading more about ethics. I had a big stack of books on my dining room table that I promised myself I was gonna [00:03:00] read after college. The first one was Peter Singer's expanding Circle. And he actually had a section addressing animal agriculture.
So from there it was reading his next book, animal Liberation, and the rest is kind of history. And. One of the ways that I started to realize that the law could actually be used to create positive change I started to realize that there were impact litigation campaigns going on, especially around like greenwashing or humane washing.
if you're familiar with Vital Farms eggs, there's been some litigation about false statements made on their egg cartons about how they treat their chickens and. It's through litigation Campaigns like that where consumers like me were brought into the loop about what these practices are, how they can be harmful.
Another campaign was like California's Proposition 12. just seeing attorneys come in and defend that law, defend ways that, the public and voters were [00:04:00] saying we want. This kind of change. We want to ban, the sale of products that have been made through these cruel practices like gestation greats.
That was really impactful on me, so I wanted to be part of that. Great. Thanks for sharing some of your story. Nicole, I think a lot of our listeners are interested in hearing how things evolve for the people that I'm interviewing and myself as well. You mentioned about factory farming and commodification of animals, and maybe share what switched for you or what changed.
There's a conscious effort by media and government and the industries largely themselves, to keep the idea that animals are individuals and they have their own lives and they should be given protections.
Even that's off the radar for the majority of Americans, and I myself was in that group [00:05:00] for. The longest time until only very recently, and some people stumble across it by accident. Some people have their group of friends or family that exposes it to 'em. Can you share what was it for you that kind of said, huh, something doesn't look right here, or unfair, or whatever it was.
What pushed you into this sphere? Yeah. I would say it wasn't just one aha moment for me. It was very much a series of, oh, this doesn't feel right. Oh, I don't have the full picture. So growing up, my mom's family, they were all farmers. I grew up visiting the family farm, right?
so I had this connection to. The animals that my family was raising, it was very much kind of the small farm, idyllic green pastures. you get to know the animals, you get to name them kind of thing. Which is very unusual in, today's farming [00:06:00] society.
Just listeners of my show I think will recall that, but this is not the norm. it represents 1% or less of farmed animals in the country. So the bucolic family farm, that Nicole's telling is about the extreme minority and probably be becoming even more the minority. I just wanted to pause there and expand that.
Please continue. Yeah, absolutely. and I think that was part of like the awakening experience was just realizing that, oh my gosh, everything that I thought I knew about our farm system. This isn't actually what the animals at the store, this isn't where they came from, But even in that idyllic setting I've had these values instilled of me of you need to know where your food comes from. You need to reap what you say essentially. Right. And even within that setting, there was just A small part of me that was like, I don't think I can.
Kill these animals that I know, that I've built a relationship with. And so that was the first huh, moment if I can't [00:07:00] physically, be part of the entire food process, maybe I shouldn't be taking part of it. And at the time I was a teenager, I thought I had figured out animal rights completely.
I was like, okay, I'm gonna. Go vegetarian, not gonna eat any meat, and I won't participate in anything that I can't, ethically commit myself to. And then I went to college and started learning more and more about how intertwined All animal products are with just suffering and exploitation within the industry.
For instance, we think about dairy and milk being more of like a clean, less cruel product 'cause we're just milking the cows. But just learning about how, there's just so much cruelty with how you can find the cow with how you take the baby cow away from the mother right after birth, the intense psychological suffering and stress, that they display through their behavior. it's just heartbreaking. And also [00:08:00] how, the dairy industry feeds other animal commodities like the leather industry, or, later on dairy cows get turned into meat,
That was something that I just hadn't thought about, I didn't wanna think about. Because I still wanted to have my milk drink, eat my cheese. Because you like cheese and ice cream. Right? Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I studied French, so cheese and wine were half the major. Right. They do go good together.
yes. But you know, it was a process of realizing that, even though. I was saying, okay, I'm not gonna be complicit in the slaughtering of animals. I was still supporting the industry by, buying products that really are intertwined and feed into this exploited industry. So that's the long-winded way of saying that.
That was the ethical side of things. And, like whenever I first. started thinking about going vegan or just, you know, cutting back on plant-based pro or on meat-based products. It was a very slow process. It had to be [00:09:00] something that I felt like I was doing because it was a positive action.
Something that wasn't as motivated by, a shrinking away or shame or guilt but more pursuing. The values that I cared about, that I actually, wanted to embody and wanted to share with other people. And in that way I think the transition was a lot easier because, just having conversations with people about it like we are now or exploring different fun vegan foods those are more opportunities and ways to just create life and, embody your values as you go.
Thanks for sharing all that, Nicole. Lots of really good points you hit on, which resonate with me and I think can resonate with a lot of people. What got you there? Finally, if I can paraphrase, 'cause I think it's very similar to me, is that at some point you realize that feeding the system that. [00:10:00] treats animals like commodities and treats them horribly their entire life and turns them into food for us to consume.
It's just not consistent with your values, with what you believe in. if I can paraphrase correctly that's the way I felt and it took me a while to get there. And it was through education, like it sounds Similar to you. It's reading, watching videos or documentaries or gradual learning piece by piece.
How horrible the system is for the animals. And even About goes beyond food, which I again had no. A clue how captive wild animals, for example, how horribly abused they are for entertainment. Things like circuses and roadside zoos. And that never entered my mind.
And it's not even just like they're treated kind of bad. It's as well as in the food system. It's violent and horrible [00:11:00] and. The more I studying animal law, like you, I'm exposed to it over and over again and it just solidifies, it makes me more committed to saying, yeah, it's not consistent of my values.
I can't spend a dollar on it. I don't wanna support the industry. I don't want to be contributing to the problem. And like you, I'm here too. Learn the law and learn how to be part of the solution to change it. So yeah, I think that's important for all our listeners. No one's going to change or maybe, but if you are gonna change right away, no one is going to because anyone's telling you to or forcing you.
I am trying to disseminate information on my podcast and arm you with what you need to make decisions, which are most consistent with your values, which is what? Ideally, everyone should be doing because it's the way to live a healthier life in all spheres avoiding the cognitive dissonance and living true to yourself.
So thanks for sharing all that, Nicole. That's a great [00:12:00] story. How you got there? I did wanna ask, you mentioned two terms before we go on and talk about what you're gonna teach us greenwashing and humane washing.
can you define those for our audience and maybe give one example of them at play? And how they're deceiving the public. Yeah, absolutely. So greenwashing and humane washing, they denote the general concept of companies just saying Our product is more ethical than it is, and because our product is ethical, you should buy it.
You should support us. And usually companies will try and charge a premium on that ethical product. So they're not just misleading you about what the true cost of your product is, but they're also actually literally overcharging you for your product. and the way they can get away with that is because in part legal issues aside, they are aware that.
enough of the public, in theory, cares about how [00:13:00] animals are treated, before they get turned into food. And if they think that an animal was raised in a humane manner or naturally, or ethical source or whatever the term is, they're willing to pay more for that. Instead of, a pound of ground beef in the store, that might go for, I don't know, $6 a pound, maybe it's gonna be seven 50 a pound for that humane type labeling.
And that may or may not be true as a consumer. It's really hard to tell. So you may be spending more for. A product that's really the same thing. Continue, please. Yeah, exactly. And so humane washing speaks more to those ethical animal welfare claims. So for instance, we could take the term cage free.
We're kind of lucky with cage free. We actually get a definition that gets regulated by our [00:14:00] government. but a lot of times you'll see products that are promoting cage free and it shows these chickens like on a pasture. Very spread out. They're not in cages, so Surely that's what cage free means.
But if you look at a lot of these cage free facilities, you'll see these chickens who are just very tightly packed in together in a very narrow room. they may be able to move around in the space. With the amount of birds though that are in there , they can't actually flap their wings.
They're under a lot of stress. There's more. Chickens and they're used to having, so they can't have a pecking order. And it creates a lot of stress and suffering that it's definitely better than the cage system where chickens couldn't even spread their wings or turn around because there's wire blocking them.
But, it's. Just a very small step up from the suffering that cages creates. So that would be an example in terms of the welfare perspective. In [00:15:00] terms of greenwashing, this relates to more like ecological eco-friendly claims. So Tyson had a climate friendly beef. Advertisement that they were doing it recently actually got defeated in litigation.
but they were saying that the beef they were producing was going to contribute to, Net carbon emissions and it was gonna reduce greenhouse gases because net zero, right?Yes . Net zero. And one of the reasons why Tyson eventually settled and agreed not to continue advertising this, is because they actually had no plans or processes to implement this net zero, I think it was by 2050.
There was just no evidence that they could even do this. And yet they were still able or thought they were able to market that they had these good intentions to go net zero by 2050. So that would be an example of greenwashing. Great. Thanks. And that's similar. They [00:16:00] probably we're charging a bit more for it for that.
Net zero. Claim product and people who are very interested in the environment and greenhouse gases and air quality, they might be willing to pay a bit more for something with that claim and. Well, we now know if this, not only do they not have a plan, but the technology doesn't even exist today.
For creating a farm like that, that's gonna be net zero. And like you said, there's no technology. They don't have a plan to develop it and then they were called out on it and they had to remove the label. Correct? Correct. Yep. Yeah. Thanks for expanding on humane washing Greenwashing. It's Everywhere on products. one of the take home points is you really can't believe it when you see it. And this is one example, until someone gets sued, like in this [00:17:00] case, those claims can go on, and they can put a picture of whatever they want on their label.
like the coal brought up that it says cage free and they've got the chickens roaming on a farm with green grass out in the sunshine. And none of that's true. So let the consumer beware is really what this is, you can do your research when you're buying these, if you decide to buy these animal.
Products at all. it's really hard to believe what's on the label. Don't get fleeced . All right, Nicole. Next you opened with, there's ways that consumers or the public can take action and let their voice be heard. On issues that are important to them. You mentioned rulemaking, so perhaps you can create for our listeners what the environment is, where rulemaking applies, where it fits in the legislative process, and how, [00:18:00] anyone can make their voice heard for.
Whatever issue they wanna speak up about. Yeah, absolutely. So usually when a law gets passed, it actually empowers agencies to make rules that clarify or enforce this law. So some of these rules have the binding effect of law. so it's like a smaller law under the organic statute. And agencies can also issue guidance based on this law.
So for instance, they could say, this is how we're interpreting this term and this is how we're going to proceed and, prioritize enforcement decisions. Because whenever the legislation passes a law, sometimes there can be gaps or places that the legislature knows. There may be future developments and there needs to be flexibility that something like an agency can fill and react to as more information comes into play.
When an agency publishes a [00:19:00] rule, usually they will have a notice and comment period. And this can be a call for general information about what rule they should even make based on a law, or it can be more specific pointed questions, that provide draft language of the proposed rule, that they're going to enact.
it's obligatory, right? there has to be a public comment period.
the general rule is that yes, an agency is going to publish a rule. It needs to ask for notice and comment.
In fact, there are some rules that agencies specifically don't have to do this for, and they still do it. FDA is a good example of this. They like to get public input before promulgating a rule that doesn't necessarily need that kind of input. Thanks for explaining that, Nicole. Yeah,
All right. So rulemaking it's usually a part of the process before the final rule. Gets promulgated and kind of putting this in perspective, law gets passed. The next [00:20:00] step is often the specifics of it or some of the details are delegated to the relevant agency, which makes specific rules that need to be followed to implement said law.
And in that process, before rule gets finalized often there is a period for public comment, this is what Nicole is going to chat with us a little bit about for most of these, before the specifics of implementation of a law get get promulgated and go into effect and the law gets implemented, you have an opportunity to lend your voice to it.
Nicole, share with us how that. Works and how our listeners can find that and be able to be part of the process. Yeah. So in terms of finding agency rules that are up for comment one of the most direct ways, if you're looking for federal law would be to go to regulations.gov.
If you just type that in, it'll take you straight to [00:21:00] homepage. I find the easiest way if you don't have like a specific docket number or a keyword that you're really looking for, is to go to documents under the search bar. and then you can filter by document type agency, and you can also narrow your search by keywords that add onto those filters.
So say you are interested in vaccines and you're wanting all new rules that pertain to vaccines you could filter by document, which would give you the draft language of that rule and the call for comment. and then you could filter by the agency. So you could do department of Health and Human Services if there's a sub-agency that regulates that.
You could also further narrow by that. and then you could type in the keyword vaccines. And that would give you the most up-to-date. Rules, and there's usually a big notification at the bottom before you even click into the document that says, open for comments, close for comments, or open for late comments.
Something to that effect so you'll know immediately that it's [00:22:00] ready. Also if you find a law. or a rule that you're interested in, you can actually subscribe to that. It's called a docket. so basically the entire record attached to that rule, that'll give you updates for when the comment period opens, closes reopens.
That sometimes happens. So it'll just keep you in the loop. Another way to. Find rules more based on general topics or by agency, is to go to federal register.gov and. If you go into that site, you can make an account and actually subscribe to general topics of interest. So, for me and my interests, I am really in the industrial agriculture field.
So I am keyed into more USDA type rules concerning, how we regulate slaughter lines or welfare standards. So federal register.gov and regulations.gov. Yes. Two very good sites [00:23:00] to remember to go. And I encourage you if you're interested in being more a part of the process and making your voice heard with implementation of regulations that follow laws, I encourage you to go to those sites and check them out.
Look around pick whatever topic you're interested in, animal law related, environment related or otherwise, and you could find almost certainly some that are still open for public comment. And you could scroll down and see others that have closed. And if you wanna sign up for whatever topic you're interested in, you get alerts and you can stay on top of it and make your voice heard.
And if I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, but the agency has an obligation to look at the comments. it's part of the process written into law.
This has to be done. So it has to be at least reviewed and then [00:24:00] they may or may not take it into account, but there's a system in place to hear from the public. Yeah. And I'll emphasize that, public comments aren't necessarily a vote in favor of a law.
But it definitely is a good way to have visibility for your voice and your perspective. The kind of general. Rule about persuasive comments is. Would the argument you're making with the facts you're giving, with the perspective you're giving, cause the agency to change their rule. And if you're providing enough facts or testimony to support that there's a good chance that that's going to have great weight with the agency making decision making process, and they will consider it.
Even if they don't implement it there's a good chance that once the final rule gets passed, there will be a response that the agency publishes. It won't be calling out your comment directly necessarily, but they tend to respond to comments in groups and they'll [00:25:00] explain why they did or did not implement what you suggested.
And in terms of writing persuasive comments, I would say that there's two really strong aspects to think about. One, and I think the thing you wanna lead with is more testimonial information. So explaining who you are, how the rule impacts you, or why you are qualified to speak to the issue. These are all factors that agencies really wanna take into account and will frame.
The following argument that you make. The second aspect to that is providing factual support. So this isn't always needed for rules. If you just want to testify to how a rule will impact you, that is completely fine. You can do that. But if you find Inaccuracy with what the agency's saying or you don't agree with the studies that they're relying on.
You can actually bring your own studies into play. You can find, publicly available sources or provide your own version of expert [00:26:00] testimony depending on your training. To actually rebut or maybe even support the rule. I'll also add that agencies often do notice in comment periods when they want to rescind a rule.
So if there's a regulation that you really agree with, and it's on the chopping block, so to speak, you can have a voice and say, please do not rescind this rule. Here is why it's effective or why we need it.
Great. Thank you, Nicole. That's a great summary and explanation for our listeners. And I just wanna emphasize what Nicole said, the more fact oriented and supporting what you're saying with whatever your argument is, it has the chance to carry more weight.
as opposed to saying, I agree with this, or, please don't pass this rule And if you are an expert in some area that has some credibility to lend to it, mention it. Talk about your credentials and why you're qualified, but you don't have to be, you could have an opinion, you could back it [00:27:00] up with something.
And that's great. Nicole, do you have an example maybe you could share of a comment you made? Recently to just give our listeners an example of law regulation common period and what you did. Yeah, absolutely. So,
we were looking at the agency regulating or under regulating what kind of pollutants, that the cattle feed lot is trying to produce? For context, this is a. Water permit. So it's trying to prevent pollution into the waters caused by the feedlot. And traditionally the agency doesn't allow pollutants that are carried off by air and get put into the water.
they don't regulate that, so we were also trying to advance more novel legal arguments through our comment process. Just getting those on the table and saying, Hey. We think that there's enough evidence and enough legal [00:28:00] support that you could actually be regulating these air emissions that are, going through a very clear path into the water that's right next to the feedlot operation.
And in that way we were doing something called building an administrative record. So if the agency. Doesn't support or doesn't implement our suggestions. We have our comments on file. We have the evidence that we use, the studies that we used on file. And, for people in the legal world, that is a great way to challenge the final rule to challenge the granting of this permit.
because it details all the information that the agency had to consider, when making the rule. That's a real world example from not too long ago of working to change the system for the better. And here making your voice heard, which is the way the government is supposed to work.
the government's supposed to do the will of its constituents, and this is [00:29:00] one way to make your voice heard as a constituent, yeah, that's great.
That's great, Nicole. there are many areas that you don't have to be a lawyer to make a difference in this space by any stretch. For getting anything done on a big level, for sure. Even at a state level or city council level, for example, the people, the constituents make their voices heard. The lawmakers should be listening. and flipping this around if you don't make your voice heard, you have zero chance that your opinion is gonna make a difference. So this is a way to be part of the system, make your voice heard, and advocate for what's important to you. Yeah, and I mean, within these public comment spaces, I guarantee you. All the big industry players, anyone who's been lobbying, anyone who's has any financial stake in this issue, they're always going to be heard.
They're always going to make sure [00:30:00] that their 2 cents or 3 cents or 50 cents gets put in. and this is the perfect way for you to balance that out because As a public commenter, you're on equal footing with those industries. You get to say, here's why I am interested. Here's why this matters.
It's not just affecting this industry, it's affecting me as a consumer, as a parent, as a voter, anything. Yeah, that's, great. And it affects not just animal environment education so many other areas where there's a law and then rulemaking it's across the board. So it's a great way to make your voice heard and be a part of the process.
Are there any other, Relatively simple ways that you would recommend for the public who doesn't have a law degree or a pending law degree to be a part of this process and make their voice heard for [00:31:00] implementation of laws? Yeah, I would say especially for our folks who have more scientific or technical training.
We really need you to be reviewing the information in these documents. I cannot tell you how many lawyers rely on experts like you to just. Let us know that we have the right facts and that we're making the right arguments. And trust me, agencies, even though they have very good skilled, qualified people, sometimes they can't get to everything and sometimes they may make mistakes.
And by providing your expert analysis and opinion , even if it's just saying this is correct, that is extremely helpful. It's extremely useful, and it builds back trust in. our rulemaking system and our democratic process. And we're definitely in a space where deregulation seems to be the norm, where agency [00:32:00] mistrust is trying to be pushed as the norm.
And it doesn't have to be this way. we can partner with agencies, we can hold them accountable, but we can also, by holding them accountable, see the good that can come out of the process.
We've Got humans on the other end looking at this, who, like all of us are imperfect and miss stuff. Maybe they're overworked too and just can't get to everything on time. Working with incomplete data and not having access to everything. Like, like me as a medical provider, even in my specialty, I have not read.
Every piece of literature on influenza or staph infections or foodborne illness it's impossible. And we're working with humans on the other end trying to do the best they can. Most of the time, I hope, and we can helpmake our voice heard and also hopefully help guide them to, [00:33:00] implement the rule.
Which is as close as possible to what the law intended it to be . Yeah. And I also wanna emphasize, we've been talking about federal laws more during this podcast, but there's a lot that goes on with state agencies. In fact, the comment that we discussed just now, it is a state agency that was issuing that permit.
so it's a very similar way to get involved. Usually you just go to the state agency website and you'll see a call for comment section. within that website. Also if you're more interested in a very special interest you can find legal organizations that will cue you in to new rules that are coming up.
So for animal law issues, the Brooks Report is really good. If for more environmental issues that intersect with animal law, I'd recommend Food and Water Watch or Center for Food Safety. And sometimes those organizations also provide little templates for comments. The more personalized you can make that, it's [00:34:00] wonderful, but if you don't have a lot of time, and you agree with what the organization's saying feel free to make use of those as well.
Thanks for that, for all of us, Nicole. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
All right, Nicole Wood thank you so much for joining the show today. this was fun, very educational for me, You have a chance to be a part of the solution in whatever's most meaningful to you.
You can find it and make your voice heard. Nicole, thanks again. Thank you so much, Johnny.