Animal research isn't just harming animals, it's taking a toll on the humans who care for them. In this eye-opening episode, former primate lab worker Madeline Krasno of Justify reveals the psychological trauma faced by lab staff, the realities of animal suffering, and why we need ethical, human-relevant science.
What if the "necessary" animal research we rely on is breaking the people who conduct it?
In this episode of Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, host Dr. Johnny Lieberman speaks with Madeline Krasno, Executive Director of Justify and a former primate lab caretaker at UW Madison. Drawing from her two years caring for over 500 monkeys, preparing minimal "enrichment," administering meds, and witnessing daily stress and injuries. Madeline exposes the moral injury and compassion fatigue that plague lab workers. She shares how her experiences led to free speech lawsuits against UW Madison and the NIH, sparking national conversations on transparency. The discussion dives into systemic issues: stressed animals yielding unreliable data (with ~100% failure rates in human translation), lack of enforcement for violations, and the urgent need to shift toward animal-free technologies. Madeline also explains Justify's mission to support lab workers through confidential spaces, resources, and community-building to heal and advocate for change. This episode challenges assumptions about animal experimentation's validity and ethics, highlighting its links to human health, worker well-being, and public policy.
Top 3 Takeaways
About the Guest – Madeline Krasno
Madeline Krasno is a former primate lab worker turned advocate for compassion and transparency in science. Her successful free speech lawsuits against UW Madison and the NIH, featured in the Washington Post, sparked national dialogue about the hidden human and animal costs of experimentation.
Today, she is Executive Director and co-founder of Justify, a nonprofit creating space for current and former animal research professionals to process their experiences, reclaim their voices, and help build a more ethical, human-relevant future in science. Madeline holds a master's degree in Humane Education from Valparaiso University and a dual bachelor's degree in Zoology and Child Development from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Her background spans animal care, wildlife rehabilitation, curriculum development, public speaking, outreach, and community building.
🔗 Read more about Madeline Krasno:
About the Show
Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health explores the intersection of animal welfare, public policy, and human health. Hosted by Dr. Johnny Lieberman, each episode invites changemakers, legal experts, and health advocates to shed light on what really impacts our communities—and what we can do about it.
About the Host:
Dr. Johnny Lieberman is a physician, public health advocate, and lifelong animal lover with a passion for connecting the dots between animal welfare, human behavior, and the systems that shape our lives. With a background in both medicine and public health policy, Johnny brings a unique lens to conversations about how our treatment of animals impacts human health, the environment, and social justice.
In Puppies, Pandemics, and Public Health, Johnny brings warmth, curiosity, and a dash of wit to tough conversations that matter. From exposing the realities of factory farming to uncovering the links between zoonotic diseases and our food systems, his goal is to empower listeners to be informed, compassionate, and engaged citizens—while still keeping it real (and sometimes bringing in puppies).
Whether he's discussing legislative loopholes or snuggling his rescue dog between recordings, Dr. Lieberman believes that creating a healthier world starts with how we treat its most vulnerable beings.
[00:00:00] We are told animal research saves lives, but in this episode I take you inside the lab, keep listening and hear from a former lab worker, and you'll learn about a system where animal suffer. Workers are harmed and human health may not be winning at all.
Madeline Krasno is a former primate lab worker, turned advocate for compassion and transparency in science. Her successful free speech lawsuits against UW Madison and the NIH featured in the Washington Post sparked national dialogue about the hidden. Human and animal costs of experimentation Today, she is executive director of Justify a nonprofit creating space for current and former animal research professionals to process their experiences, reclaim their [00:01:00] voices, and help build a more ethical, human relevant future in science.
Madeline holds a master's degree in Humane Education from Val Pazo University and a dual bachelor's degree in Zoology and Child Development from the University of Wisconsin Madison. Her background spans animal care, wildlife rehabilitation, curriculum development, public speaking, outreach, and community building.
Welcome to another episode of Puppies, pandemics and Public Health.
I am Dr. Johnny Lieberman and today we have on the show Madeleine Krasno of Justify. Madeline, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. Madeline, let's start with what would be the one most important point that you'd like our audience to know? If there's one take home point that they should not miss from our show, what would that be?
So the [00:02:00] main takeaway that I would say for justifies work and for this conversation is that there is a. Very large psychological impact for the humans who are working in animal research and that this impact only further tells us that we need to be moving away from animal research.
It's not just the animals who are being harmed. The humans who care for them are often deeply suffering as well because of what it's like to care for these animals in lab. we talk a lot about, animals and research and what the pathway is and a lot of the downsides
But lost from that conversation to many is exactly what you brought up. The workers, what's it like for them and. You have firsthand experience in that setting? I do, yes. I was a caretaker for [00:03:00] over 500 monkeys at the University of Wisconsin Madison's Harlow Primate lab back when I was in college. So I had, about two years that I spent part-time as a caregiver for these animals that were.
Bred and used and basically killed in the name of science. so as a caregiver in a facility that performs research on animals, what were your day-to-day roles? So my role consisted of things like preparing enrichment for the animals.
Now enrichment sounds better than it is. So enrichment could be anything from a quarter slice of an apple. Or setting up a TV that the monkeys could barely kind of see from their cages, that would give them some sort of visual or sound [00:04:00] enrichment. There were these, plastic kind of feeders.
There was tube shapes and ball shaped, and basically we'd stuff them with popcorn and cereal and hook them to the monkey's cages, and this would give them something to do for. Honestly a few minutes, but it was a lot more time consuming to do this for all of these animals than what it actually amounted to be for these individual animals, if that makes sense.
Because you're trying to do so much, but for a large number of animals, in addition to this, the weekends that I worked. It was two of us students who were generally responsible for the care of these monkeys. So what that meant is on the weekends, two of us would be checking, the health of these monkeys.
So we'd be going through, looking at individuals oftentimes with flashlights because the lighting wasn't great. Looking [00:05:00] for injuries. Looking for menstruation because they were breeding these animals. We were feeding them, checking their waters, we were giving them medications if they needed medications.
this would even include injections if they needed shots. So I was trained to do that. Well trained maybe a nice way of putting it. but, and then we would hose down all of these rooms and kind of the drop pans where all of the feces and urine came down. I mean, these monkeys were living in these tiny cages, barely larger than themselves, some of whom were alone.
Some lived with maybe one other monkey, generally speaking. And, that was when everything went smooth. But of course when you're caring for animals, especially, wild animals like monkeys, A lot can go wrong or take place that is unexpected and there was a lot of stress with that, a lot of emotion with [00:06:00] that.
And some of these weekend days. Went really long and honestly broke my heart at times. So what motivated or inspired you to take this job and work in this space? I was inspired by none other than Jane Goodall, actually. I always looked up to her. Compassion for animals and specifically her work that she was doing with chimpanzees.
And so I actually wanted to work in primate conservation. And so when I took a college course that was all about primates, it was called animal behavior, the primates, it kind of reinspired this desire in me to follow in her footsteps. And the person who taught that course was actually the director of the primate lab that I went [00:07:00] on to work in.
And the course itself did not prepare me to say the least for what I was going to see, feel, be a part of in an animal lab. I just thought, this is a great way for me to get something on my resume that is working with primates. I'll get to take care of them. And, I'm a caretaker.
I can do that. I didn't know the heartbreak and the moral injury that I would go on to experience. I was sort of, what's the term? Like you have these. Rosie Rose colored glasses. Rose. Rose colored glasses. Yeah, just thinking like, this'll be great. They take really good care of the animals. That's what I'm being told. And don't get me wrong, we try to take really good care of the animals . I mean, I wanted to do everything in my power to make their lives less bad, [00:08:00] but. There's only so much you can do in this type of setting when their bodies, their lives, it doesn't even belong to them.
I felt really derailed for a long time. And even though I was thinking, yes, I wanna go into primate conservation. At the same time, I was sort of being like internally destroyed by what I was a part of and starting to question just our treatment of animals, not just in labs, but in society as a whole.
So thank you for sharing that. I could certainly see why you, or. Anyone with similar interests might be drawn to do that work. We care about the animals. We'd like to make a difference and help to improve their lives in something that is [00:09:00] generally viewed as important. Research experimenting on animals.
And maybe even necessary. You're drawn out of a selfless need to help and contribute and make their lives not good as you suggested, but less bad. And I think that's an important difference, and that might be something I hope we convey to our listeners as we go through here.
I have spoken with researchers and former researchers, and every single facility has almost the same line. We care deeply for our animals. We treat them very well. The research we do is extremely important. It is almost the same verbatim time, after time, after time. And it's important not just for this space, but I [00:10:00] feel like in 2025, in a lot of scenarios, we don't necessarily take what other people tell us for granted.
Yeah. There is often an ulterior motive or a money motive for the message you're hearing. We want your money, so we're gonna. I try and tell you this or mm-hmm. We get money as a result of doing this. So this is the story we're gonna tell to make it sound better. Yeah. You can't believe everything you hear.
So Madeline, you went in with these great ideas of being able to make a difference for the animals. And how did things change for you once you were there? what did you see? What did you experience that? Changed your mind because I think a lot of my listeners, our listeners might be able to learn from that and maybe recast this narrative [00:11:00] out there about what I just spoke about, that it's not exactly what we're told.
Yeah. The thing about. Animal research and being in an animal research lab is to some degree, you don't know how much you don't know or understand about it. until you are in there and it's hard to fully. help the public understand what it's like to be in this situation, especially as individuals who care for animals.
And of course, I'm not saying that everyone who is working in the industry is, deeply compassionate towards these animals or wants to see. Better welfare for them. But at the same time, we also need to not generalize that everyone in the industry is this way that there aren't caring compassionate people because there are, and the way [00:12:00] this whole kind of system functions is by.
Basically duping compassionate people into feeling stuck caring for these animals because if they leave, the animals are still there and if they stay, they just further suffer because they are experiencing this moral dilemma of like, I wanna help animals and I wanna do what I can for this animal.
But at the same time, you are helping them be used. And ultimately killed. So a lot of this I hadn't fully wrapped my head around. I mean, I was 21, 22 when I was in the lab, and I was someone who was fiercely sort of afraid and obedient of authority, so. When I went to my boss, for example, one time, after I was giving an injection to a monkey, they were sick and needed [00:13:00] medicine, so this wasn't something to make them sick.
This was, again, as a caretaker, we were meant to be, improving the welfare of these animals. Now that being said, this is a really stressful environment and the monkey. I can't tell the difference between me someone trying to give them an injection because they're sick versus someone trying to give them an injection related to a research study.
And so they were stressed and moving around and I ended up having to poke them multiple times with a syringe, and I felt really guilty about that. I felt. Upset and stressed because I knew I was stressing them out. And also who wants to be poked multiple times with a syringe. And there's this point where you're like, is it worth continuing to, to do this, to try to get them this medication?
Versus is it just causing even more unnecessary stress? I mean, this, this was like a constant question. I feel like with what we had [00:14:00] to do for these animals. But, this kind of question of is what I'm doing worth the stress that it's inducing when it's supposed to be helping them in terms of basically, yeah, getting them sort of the healthcare they need, the medical care they need.
This was a question that. I would think about a lot. And when I went to my boss at the time and kind of expressed I felt really bad, I had to, poke this monkey multiple times to get them their injection. I was told that it's okay because they don't feel pain the same way that we do.
And at the time I was like, I don't know. I mean, the monkey was clearly stressed. So I don't know exactly how they are experiencing it and if it's the same way I experience something similar, but also at the same time, this is a really extreme situation and yet this person who's [00:15:00] been, in this industry for a long time and is in charge of all of the animal care.
Is telling me this and I'm like they must know, right? Because we learn to look up to the people that are sort of the experts. And so what do I know as this, young, impressional person who is just sort of for the first time taking care of Reese's monkeys, like these really complicated animals.
And obviously looking back on it I realized that this is just one of the kind of pieces of propaganda misleading information that we're told to sort of make things feel better. But I also at the time was like, okay, I am just gonna continue to basically push away my concerns because.
I also knew that if you express too much concern or look a certain [00:16:00] way, there could be a target on your back, you might be looked at as an animal activist. Something I did not identify with at the timeI went into the lab as. Someone who, consumed all animal products.
Madeline, before you go on. Yeah. To back up. So when you were told this for the first time by your boss, they don't feel pain the same way we do. You bought it? Is that what I understood? I don't know that I bought it, but I sort of was like, I think I justified it in my head a little bit as like.
She does know more than I do, and also I'm not comfortable sort of pushing the issue, so I don't think it was like fully bought as much as I just was like, I don't know, like I don't feel confident or comfortable thinking differently, at least out loud, if that makes sense. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to clarify that, so yeah.
Any animal [00:17:00] researcher that I spoke with, voicing any kind of questioning or challenge or dissent for something about animal treatment, it gets viewed negatively, almost revolutionary, kind of like you were saying in. an environment which everyone thinks of as, as science.
Yeah. This is science based and there's supposed to be people I think outside think that there's some standard of care for these animals there's a duty to do the best possible to at least make it less bad, if it's never gonna be great or even good. But. It's just this environment of kind of shut your mouth and do your work, it's my translation of what you said.
Yes. Don't ask me any questions. you as a troublemaker. Maybe if you do it three or four times we'll find someone else. it's a very, from an outsider, it should be a disturbing environment [00:18:00] of this. Right. Is that something that sounds like something that. Started to wear on you as you went through is were you starting to see, hey, maybe we're not being told the truth about some things?
Yeah, I mean, I wasn't even involved in the research, right. I was a caretaker and just this experience alone was enough for me to eventually question. Basically everything about this industry. I was diagnosed with PTSD from my time working in the lab. and I've come to understand over time how my body was basically learning to deal with.
This sort of perpetual state of trauma that I was in. So I was dissociating during my time there. I don't remember as much as I wish I did, frankly. And I know [00:19:00] that's like a self preserving thing that we as humans do with trauma. But at the same time, I wish that I could share even more stories, but.
it was so hard on my heart and I don't mean to center myself in this at all, because what the animals are experiencing is absolutely awful as well. But it is important to look at how this industry functions and how the humans involved. They also become. pieces of, or pawns in this thing to do, what needs to be done for quote unquote, the greater good.
And it's all kind of said to progress human health, right? Like human, something that benefits humans. But the irony is we are completely leaving out a major cost [00:20:00] of this research. Like we talk a lot about the cost for animals, right? Non-human animals. But what about the human cost to this research?
And the more that I sort of started connecting with others who had been a part of this industry as you've said, you've done. The more I started to realize that there are a lot of stories that need to be told. And if we start to hear more from the people who are a part of this industry that don't agree with it anymore, the story is going to start to change and the future of science is going to change too, and definitely for the better.
Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that, some of that very personal experiences that you've had and you're helping me, I right now trying to change the story, change the narrative on [00:21:00] another. We're not gonna talk too much about the science of animal research, I had another full episode.
with a former animal researcher who made money for years doing research on animals until he had a bit of, I don't know if epiphany is the right word, but he said, what am I doing this for? He knew he was putting animals through hell. He saw experiment after experiment after experiment, failing.
Millions, if not billions of dollars being wasted, animal lives being wasted for nothing. And smart researchers, time being wasted for nothing,that's gonna yield any benefit to humans. And it brings me, I just wanted to emphasize what you said, a few words which bring it all together at what cost.
Right? Yes. Animal research has yielded helpful [00:22:00] human medicines at what cost? It's also harmed a lot of people because animals are such a horrible model for humans. You could have a drug look safe and effective and it goes into humans and boop, unexpected side effects. Sometimes that lead to death.
Yeah, so at what cost I want, anytime you think about the good that we're supposedly doing, by torturing animals and putting through all these horrific experiments for an extreme slim chance that we're actually gonna find something that works at what cost
is it really worth it to society? When, especially when we have better options available at what costs. So the workers, the human toll we're learning about today, which you may not have been aware of, I was not aware of until I first heard [00:23:00] Madeline talk not too long ago. It's real. And for those of us who don't have.
PTSD or don't know someone who has, I'm sure you know much more about it than I do. Can you maybe just, and generally is fine without going into anything too personal, just maybe in a few minutes, if you could summarize what kind of conditions lead to someone getting this diagnosis, and what happens?
what's your world like when you get it? And how does that tie into the work you were doing? Yeah, so it became most clear that, something was going on when I was having nightmares extremely regularly. I was back in the lab, often volunteering,
But even in the dream, I was like, why am I here again? [00:24:00] And it almost, you know, when I reflect on it now, it almost feels like that was unfinished business. But I wasn't really understanding it then. Because the thing is, is that when I left the lab, I did. What a lot of people do, which is say, okay, that's behind me.
I don't wanna talk about it. I wanna try to forget it. And I knew that I wanted to do good for animals, so I knew that I was gonna go on and, and I did go on to help animals in sanctuary settings. I didn't pursue the primate conservation path, but I pursued the animal protection path. But that being said, I sort of tried to just basically.
Forget what had happened in the lab and move forward. And the thing about trauma is it doesn't usually work that way. And so it just kind of kept coming back and I would wake up feeling horrible because [00:25:00] you don't really wake up feeling rested when you're basically going back to your place of trauma every night .
And so Madeline. The trauma you're talking about from working there, that's the visualization and participation in the process can you share kind of what you think might've led to that, if you're okay with that? So yeah, I mean part of it is just seeing these animals every day in these barren cages and.
Knowing that this is their whole life. most animals in research they're killed, right? And they often don't live the extent of their lives. But one of the things that was interesting at the lab, for example, is that it was a breeding facility. And so there were males who were actually older than me that were in the lab, that.
Was a really, and still continues to be a really hard thing for me to wrap my brain around because it's like [00:26:00] my whole life, this individual has been here in this cage occasionally accompanied by a female that he is meant to impregnate for 20 some years. it's so depressing There were incidents where I literally came across a dead infant, like a baby monkey who had died in an incubator.
that same weekend I had another infant that had a seizure and died in my hands. When you care so deeply about others, and for me it's humans and animals. I just care so deeply and I think that's a pretty natural thing. It really wears on you that you can't do what feels the most right.
And this is where like the moral. Issues come in and where I've come to learn that this is moral injury. When you're basically not able to act in a way that reflects your ethics, your morals, like [00:27:00] my ethics, my morals are that I don't wanna see animals suffering. I don't want to see them exploited and treated in this way, and yet.
Here I am trying to make, as I say, their lives less bad because to say it just would be untrue to say that they're having a good life in here. But I can't do what I ultimately would do. Like you see an injured dog outside on the street and you're gonna go and take that dog and get them the help they need.
You're not gonna go and say like, oh, I'm gonna take this dog and turn 'em into, I don't know a lab so they can test on 'em. Right. you're gonna do what you can to help them. But in the lab you're not actually allowed to do that. Right. You're allowed to help them to an extent.
But you aren't allowed to put their interests first, and that goes against everything I believe in. At the time I was 20, 21, 22, [00:28:00] and that was hard to make sense of because It's an environment where you are not encouraged to think like that.
And that. You know that speaking up with those types of concerns isn't going to go well and that hasn't changed. You know, like that's when I talk to other people who have been a part of this industry, this is a commonality. You are either with us or against us, more or less when it comes to the industry.
And that doesn't allow a lot of space for people to. Help themselves or help the animals, frankly. Yeah. Thanks for sharing a bit more of that story. It's a couple of terms which I think maybe the public can relate to, which I took out of that don't fit exactly, but two things relate to emotional trauma that
can lead to depression at least. Yes. And maybe PTSD has learned helplessness. [00:29:00] And cognitive dissonance. When you are acting in a way that's not consistent with your values and you have to tell yourself, it's okay, it's okay. Otherwise I'm a bad person. That takes its toll and being in a condition where you see something.
And you can't do anything about something that's very troubling, like in this scenario. That also really takes a toll on humans and probably many animals too. I think some of this has been demonstrated But for a worker who loves and cares about animals and other humans, as most humans do, it leads to.
Severe consequences for not being able to step in as you, you gave your example, if you see a dog suffering on the side of the road, you're gonna help it. And he saw this presumably over and over animals in [00:30:00] very difficult, horrible situations and you couldn't do anything about. And I hope some of the listeners can appreciate how difficult that is.
Yeah. And I think one point that's important to make too is, that a lot of what took place was standard. it's just standard in the industry. So that's why when people say, well, why didn't you report this? Well, baby monkeys dying isthat's just what happens.
That's not necessarily It's cost of business. It's not violating anything. having a head cap drilled into a monkey's brain was something they were allowed to do. You know, to me that's egregious. But there's nothing to report there unless there you know, it was probably gushing blood, but it didn't matter that this individual was literally the most angry, creature I've ever seen.
And that one day he was just gone. 'cause I'm sure they just killed him, but it's like, this is just standard. And so you are in this position where a bunch of the [00:31:00] time, it's not like there's something you can report and a lot of stuff that even you can report and gets reported, what ends up happening is a slap on the wrist, nothing.
And The people who pay for it are usually the caretakers and the people who are trying their best in a system where they can't do better. it's not getting at the systemic issues. Yeah. And the enforcers are often the ones paying for it. They're one and the same it would have to be an extremely egregious breach to even. Get something on the radar and have someone courageous like yourself, most likely stand up and report it and still, most likely nothing would happen. How do we know? Because that's what we've seen over and over again, right?
That's how we know. And just to clarify, because we glossed over this but I wanted to go back briefly. As you mentioned, drilling a cap into a monkey's brain. Let there be no doubt that animals do feel pain the way humans do. Do not [00:32:00] disabuse yourself. 'cause someone tells you that if you're gonna stick a needle into a monkey, it's going to be any less painful than if you stuck it into your child or your family member.
This is actually written into public health guidelines and protocol. In re animal research. It's a presumption that if you don't know if a procedure or intervention is going to cause pain, the assumption. Written into the law and the protocol is if it causes pain in a human, you are to assume it causes pain in an animal.
And so there is ample body of evidence behind that, certainly for primates. If you think, oh, they're just a monkey. They're just a dog. They're just a cat. They feel experience, pain, they have the same social needs and demands that we do.
They mourn, they're young. They show empathy. They show the same protective natures [00:33:00] that we do. Would you let your dog go under any kind of procedure without anesthesia? I don't think so. I don't think you let him have even a tooth pulled. Without anesthesia.
So it's not any different for a monkey or, a cow or a pig that's getting castrated without anesthesia. they feel pain. So I just wanted to briefly touch on that and disabuse anyone of the idea that there's any truth to that.
Yeah, and also, I mean, not just pain, but the stress. it tells you that you should be questioning anything that comes out of these labs based on how stressed these animals are. Because how can you possibly, get any sort of useful information, especially when it comes to psychology studies, when you're dealing with animals who are inherently.
So stressed at their baseline yeah. no great point. Getting to the whole validity of a lot of the studies we have you wouldn't wanna study humans in captivity. They're not [00:34:00] exactly the ideal audience and animals in captivity. It's not very different. They're highly stressed.
their hormone levels are way different than an animal at rest. Immunity is different. So much of what's going on is different in that captive state. It's a no wonder close to a hundred percent of experiments and animals yield nothing. I'm glad you brought that up. I did wanna touch on that, but that's such an important point.
The physical injury, the emotional injury they suffer is real, very real and battling and others taking care of those animals, experience that.
What else would you like to share, Madeline, from? Other surprising things that you learned or how it affected you? Or do other of your coworkers share similar experiences in terms of difficulties dealing with it and moving on? when you say coworkers, individuals that I had worked with, correct.
During the lab. Actually [00:35:00] when I finally decided to start. Speaking publicly about my experience, I did hear from one of my former colleagues and was surprised to know that they had been struggling that time too. And we just never knew because again, you're in this environment where you're not really encouraged to talk openly with each other, so you don't necessarily know what others are thinking or if they're just sort of like, yep, this is justified gonna kind of go along and.
So that was a pretty emotional realization and also just kind of furthered my understanding that there are so many people out there who are likely not sharing this because they don't have the community or the support to do so. and it's just easier to sort of. Stay quiet. And this is one of the things that prompted the founding of justify, which [00:36:00] is the organization that I'm the executive director of now, and I am a co-founder and justify is building this community of current and former lab workers who need a space to talk openly about their experiences to.
Understand what is psychologically taking place and provide resources and help them heal from this, and also ultimately create this community where it's like power in numbers, right? The more of us you hear from the more you're going to see that it's a moral and cultural imperative for us to move away from animal research and towards
animal free, human relevant technologies. Yeah, that's extremely valuable. I put that in the category, feeling validated. sounds like you thought you were alone while you were there for most of the time. Truth is you weren't, but you [00:37:00] didn't talk about it 'cause it was discouraged.
and we all need that, especially when we're suffering and going through something difficult. We often learn that we're not alone. We just haven't found the right person to share it with. Perhaps, or someone who has had similar experience, but they're most likely out there.
Exactly. And this, the work you're doing, it justify building this team and this increasing awareness. it's just fantastic. It's a story that needs to be told. It's a group of caring individuals, Which need a community. And to make on a personal level, to make them feel better about themselves, the contributions they've made, the work they've done, and to affect change.
Yeah. in something which, like you said, it change needs to happen and it happens because of what you're doing to justify. it's a great organization you have Madeline . Thank you. Anything [00:38:00] else that you would like to share before we close? if the public, if any of our listening audience feels like some of this is very interesting and they wanna learn more, where can they go to learn more about this?
Or what can they do as individuals if they wanna try and support this effort or the cause? Yeah, absolutely. They can find us on social media. We are on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, blue Sky, and Reddit. Justify Global is our name on these platforms. And then. They can subscribe to our newsletter, that would be great.
Reach out if they're wanting to kind of get further involved. I mean, we're really trying to start building out our volunteer opportunities and, our websites when we justify.org. We've got a lot of resources on our website for learning more and are continuing to build those out. So there'll be [00:39:00] more to come.
And for any former or current animal lab workers who might be listening, we have a confidential, encrypted platform where you can reach out to us, share your story. There's also our lab worker hub, which is specifically geared towards these individuals to help. Start providing them the resources that they need and help them know that they're not alone.
There is a group of us who have been a part of this industry and are not afraid to question it and talk openly and help us get the scientific field to where it should be. Great. Thank you so much Madeline. Please do check out. Madeline's website. Lots of great information there. Connecting people, getting the message out and learning more so that you can make more informed decisions going forward that most align with your values.
And [00:40:00] with that, you are going to close. thank you for listening to puppies, pandemics, and Public Health. Thank you Madeline, so much. Thank you.